the quiet determination that strength of character and bond of fellowship, that reputation of fear, that is both our sword and our shield. long after the current messengers of have faded from memory, deranged mad men and demagogues who litter history, the flag of the united states will still wave from small town cemeteries to national monuments to distant outposts abroad. and that flag will still stand for freedom. thank you very much, everybody. god bless you. may god bless the united states of america. that was the president speaking about terrorism, drones and closing guantanamo bay at national defense university. kristen welker is outside the

white house. >> reporter: you heard someone interrupt the president twice calling on him to close guantanamo bay. the second time, she really went on for quite a while and you heard the president make that point that he was going off script to respond to her remarks. he did address the issue of closing guantanamo bay but he really covered a wide swath today. this was his first speech on counter terrorism in his second term. to some sentence, a reset and acknowledge many that drones have become a larger force within his administration. he gave a robust defense of the united states' use of drones. he said it is legal under international law and u.s. law. he said the use of drone would be transferred from just the cia giving more control to the military. some experts said that would increase transparency. in addition to do, he called for new limits on the use of armed drones. instead of just targeting someone who poses significant threat to the united states, now

the requirement has to be that someone poses an imminent threat to the united states. the president also asked the defense department to designate a site in the u.s. to hold military tribunals for guantanamo bay prisons. this was big a one. he is lifting the moratorium on detainee transfers to yemen. you remember there has been a hunger strike at guantanamo bay. that certainly ramped up the pressure. and he did call for closing guantanamo bay. here's what he had to say more broadly. take a listen. >> from our use of drones to the detention of terrorist suspects, the decisions that we are making now will define the type of nation and world that we leave to our children. so america is at a cross roads. we must define the nature and scope of this struggle or else

it will define us. as commander-in-chief, i must weigh these heart tragedies against the alternatives. to do nothing in the face of terrorist networks would invite far more civilian casualties. not just in our cities at home and our facilities abroad but in the very places like kabul and mogadishu where terrorists seek a foothold. >> reporter: now, of course, the use of drones has been controversial to some extent. according to the latest gallup poll, 65% of americans actually support the use of drones abroad on foreign enemies. however, only 41% support the use of drones when you are talking about targeting u.s. citizens abroad and of course this comes as the justice department revealed yesterday that they had in fact taken out four american citizens abroad who they believed posed a threat

to the united states. the president really talking about a reset to some extent, saying america stands at a cross roads, talking about the fact al qaeda has been decimated. the war in afghanistan is coming to an end. the president making his case today for his foreign policy moving forward. >> how did the president talk about threeing the needle between all of our support for freedom of the press and his duty to protect national security? >> reporter: well, as you know, the president has come under a lot of criticism in recent days after the revelation the justice department had seized records from the associate press as well as a fox news reporter as part of its investigation into leaks that were coming out of the obama administration. that ruffled a lot of feathered. not only the press but also in congress. today president obama called for the journalism shield law which would mean that the justice department wouldn't be able to

seize the records of journalists there was there was a threat to national security. here's the catch. even if it were to be passed, there is no guarantee that would prevent the current situation that has happened. and that has concerned so many people. we should also say that back in 2007 and 2009, a very similar law was posed. put through congress. it didn't make it through. there is no indication that there is enough bipartisan support right now to get that shield law passed. >> thanks for your time. we want to bring in a man who specializes in counter terrorism. the former a & m intelligence officer, lieutenant colonel anthony schafer now at the center for advance defense studies. we have nbc news terrorism analyst roger cressey. tony, let me start with you and ask you about the speech. and then you want to ask you specifically about the claims the president made about our capture program. when it comes to the drone program, did the president go

far enough today to satisfy the siave liberties camps, that we've got increased transparency and accountability. >> what he said was important but it would be the action that follows up what he says. it will be most important. the two key points is they have assassinated u.s. citizens which drew the libertarian crowd. and secondly the definition of imminent threat. his administration has put out that awlaki had imminent threat. he was under surveillance by special operations command for a full 48 hours before he was assassinated and we was three other guys with guns. so we could have captured him. there was a decision made not to cap you are him. what he is saying about standardization must be addressed. and going forward, the distinction between a u.s. citizen and a foreign national must be addressed. and congress was not notified in advance, according to my

sources. they were told after the fact. the whole idea that they were briefed, could be burg not prior to the events. that's why i think he is trying to straighten out these feelings right now. >> and talk specifically about the president's claim today that we prefer to capture as opposed to drone strikes. does that ring true to you? >> it does not. if you listen carefully to the nomination process, they named the one guy that they captured prior to the spring. we've now got two. the preferred method has been to kill. i and other intelligence experts have been saying, we're creating a deficit of intelligence. you have to penetrate the network like we did to prevent the second underwear bombing. penetrate to network to defeat network. otherwise you keep chopping the head off. it will continue to grow back and attack. otherwise you see in it yemen, lib yark tune tune, tune easter.

>> some of the more interesting moments during the speech came when the president was talking about closing guantanamo bay. let's listen to that. >> judicial review be available for every detainee. now, ma'am, let me finish. let me finish, ma'am. this is part of free speech is you being able to speak but also you listening. and me being abe to speak. >> so the president outlined a number of specific steps he wants to take to ensure the closure of guantanamo bay. kristen talked about a few of them. designating a site in the u.s., lifting the moratorium on detainee transfers to yemen, a new senior envoy at state and

defense. a lot of critics of the president on this issue from the left have said that he has called for the closure of guantanamo bay but has not been willing to expend political capital. did these efforts that he's outline to you read like real action or just more words and more assertions? >> the key challenge is the president has to have a capital on capitol hill to close guantanamo and that hasn't been the case. there are a number of sfep could move that forward. until congress is willing to look at this differently, it we're stuck in this stalemate. it was important that he outlined at the end of the speech some of the who's who of terrorists who are now serving life sentences in the super max facility in colorado. we've demonstrated we can hold very, very dangerous terrorists in u.s. facilities and they're going to rot to death there. let me real quick, i want to respectfully disagree with tony. you want to get as much

information as possible. from a policy perspective where i sat in the white house, when you have an opportunity to kill someone like awlaki and you do not believe any other option is viable or possibly successful, then could you what he did. what is important that he outlined, he will tip to use drones when there is denied territory. when the government is either unwilling or incapable of doing it. and i think also, in the case of awlaki, he made a very good point. if you're an american citizen and you joined the other side and you're playing for the other team, and you're actively involved in plotting attacks, there are consequences to that. if you can't be brought to justice through capture, you should be killed. >> that really goes to the heart of the question. whether that has been sufficiently demonstrated. in the context of an american citizens, whether your due process has been proven. i want to play a very important part of today's address.

i thought this was an extraordinary address. this part that we've listen to, we heard the president break some new ground. >> where fompb governments cannot or will not effectively stop terrorism in their territory. the primary alternative to targeted lethal action would be the use of conventional military options. conventional missiles are far less precise. so putting boots on the ground is less likely to result in civilian deaths. >> less likely to result in civilian deaths. i want to bring you back in on this, tony. a direct statement from the president of the united states that these drone operations are superior, basically, from both a strategic and moral dimension as opposed to doing traditional warfare and going into these countries. the reason i want to say why that's so significant, for several years the administration was not arguing that.

instead they were arguing before the d.c. court of appeal, this this program was a state secret them would not defend it or explain it. they lost part of that lawsuit although it is working through the appeals process. we see a very different president. what i want to ask you specifically is do you think the president has moved enough? part of this, i think, reflects a rejection or an awareness that that argument, this was a state secret. that never had to be defended within our democracy or really around the world. i think it was game over. i think that was a fail ufrl i think it was proenl from a policy standpoint. downer productive all along. will this speech ultimately the first big counter terrorism speech of the second term be viewed as a break with a lot of precedent from obama 1.0? >> yes, i think so. probably rightly so. there's no defending this. it is hidden in plain sight. you have to explain it since we are in democracy. what that said, what he is saying about boots on the ground interesting precision use of military forces are always

preferable to killing someone. let me say something to dispute mr. cressey on this. we went into pakistan to capture the guy who kill a bunch of cia guys in '93. so we have to be able to do that. the lethalality, it is an assassination program. we just don't do it if we can avoid it. >> let me jump in real fast. the operation was a not if a as the particular example of how law enforcement intelligence works together. it is not, you cannot duplicate on it repeated occasions. it was a unother eek set of circumstances that allowed the capital you are and it was a great success. that is one tool in the tool box we should use. that's not to say drones are the first choice. they are the weapon of last resort. >> real fast, what do you think is the impact of moving the drone program from the cia over to the defense department to the

pentagon? >> tony and i will agree that this is a good move. congress, when i was at the white house doing the drone program before 9/11, we informed congress. we informed the select committee on intelligence and the house committee. that's what they were getting at. it was the intelligence committee. when it is at the pentagon there is a whole group of actors who will be notified. that's a very good thing. i can tell you, john brennan is the director of cia does not want to continue to hold an armed predator, an armed reaper as one of his responsibilities. that should be the d.o.d. and the reason why jonathan is because of how the threat has evolved. >> all right, great to have both your perspectives. straight ahead, another afternoon of severe storms. a new group of americans are in the path. but there is good news coming out of this week of wild weather. we'll be happy to bring that to you next. ♪

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that line of strong storms remains today. now threatening from new england to the nation's capital. nick walker is tracking the latest. >> we have a widespread area, as you mentioned here. possible hail, damaging winds, all the way from the mid-atlantic into the northeast. we've already been experiencing heavy and flooding rain. rain that has fallen on ground already been sat fratd from earlier rains. that's affecting the new york city area right now.

we're told that westchester county, portions of it are flooded at this moment and flood warnings are out for bergen, rockland and westchester counties. in the birkshires, heavy rainfall and numerous road closures as one work the inches of rain have fallen and between now and saturday we'll see another one to three inches fall throughout the reasoning. that, coupled with the threat of severe weather back out into the southern plains once again, making it a very active weather day. we have a tornado watch for the texas panhandle. this goes until 10:00 this evening and already at least one tornado warning has been spotted in this area. we'll continue to keep a close eye on this. >> nick walk we are the weather channel. thanks so much. now we have msnbc's craig melvin who has the governor of oklahoma. >> reporter: good afternoon to you. the recovery continues here in

moore, oklahoma. i want to bring in the governor of oklahoma. in broad term, how is the recovery going so far and what are the immediate needs here in the community? >> recovery is going well so far. if you look around, you will see that there is tremendous progress. we've open up the major street corridors. we're letting people go into the communities to get their items. we have very few people in shelters. they have found places to go live and of course the debris is starting to be removed. you can see different areas where debris is just gone. that is really helping to get the community back. >> yesterday you indicated that there were still six people unaccounted for. have we found those six? >> we have found them. there were a couple couples that had gone and left their home and gone to a hotel room. there was one person that put a note on the door and said tornado coming. i'm leaving. there was one person we found that had passed away. that was one of the unidentified

people. we've accounted for everybody now. >> we do not expect the death toll to rise above 24. >> we don't expect it now unless some unforeseen circumstance happens but there are no missing people that we know of. >> the number injured right now as i understand it, around 377. that number jumped overnight it seemed. >> as you can manning with a catastrophe of this magnitude, information is hard to come by. as you know, the cell phone service has been terrible. so people gathering. we're gathering better information. people have left their home, their possessions, they've gone to relatives now, they're repeople and could not call their relatives because they couldn't get cell phone service for a while and could not get through different roads and highways. they're reconnecting. now we're checking with the hospitals. >> there have been a number of folks who have said had their been a safe room in one of those schools, that there might be a

few more kids walking around today. what's your take on that? >> unfortunately the school were built in the 1960s. they were older schools in the area. we have replaced many of the schools, the new schools are being built with safe rooms and that's a good thing to do. we certainly want to encourage. that it is a discussion that we need to have and we will have over the summer once we get past this initial recovery stage and get this community back on its feet. we have put $57 million into safe rooms in our state. personal homes and communities, schools themselves. through fema money. through also state money. and that has gone a long way to help put more safe room in. >> no call or the force all school in oklahoma to install these safe rooms. >> right now we're in the recovery stage. we want to have that discussion. i think it is wise to do that. the decision of having a safe room is up to the local community who works through school boards who pass bond issues to build schools.

>> reporter: how would you character ties federal government's response so far? >> it's been good. we've had fema personnel on the ground. we have the administrator who came here. we appreciate that. we anticipate that we'll be getting our federal share for our disaster declaration in. hopefully tomorrow. we need to get these communities reimbursed. there is a tremendous. a expense for overtime when you think about this. >> how long do we think it might take? you look at images like. this literally thousands of cars are stacked all over moore. buildings demolished, homes, 12,000 to 13,000 buildings destroyed or damaged. how long do you think it may take to get the city back on its feet. >> we'll push out as quickly as we can once people get their personal property together. that's very important. to push the cities to clean up quickly. it is very important that we get

the debris up. it is a health hazard. a safety hazard. there are a lot of businesses affected. cities losing revenue. lack of services because businesses are closed. we need to get them back online geflt power up. the water is restored. fema has told us, they will give us an 85% match but it only lasts 30 days. it is a great incentive. and then it drops off after that. >> for folks watching who are wondering about this aid that you've mentioned, is there a website or a phone number? >> there is. fema has a 1-800-621-fema. we have a state website so you can get accurate up to date information or let us know what you need. it is okstrong.ok.gov. >> one of the things that struck all of us perhaps even more so

than the damage in your city has been the spirit of the people and their response. it has been really amazing. >> we appreciate that. we're proud of our spirit. proud of our state. >> as you should be. thank you for your time. we'll send it back to you in the studio. >> craig melvin and governor mary fallin. thank you so much. when we come back, trial and error waiting for the jodi arias trial jury to make its biggest decision yet. ♪ i' 'm a hard, hard ♪ worker every day. ♪ i' ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm working every day. ♪

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will jodi arias's life be spared? jurors in the death penalty phase of her trial have been deadlocked until now. will that change today? diane alvear is at the courthouse. some action from the jury this afternoon? >> reporter: well, it got really exciting for about three minutes. they were allowing us into the courtroom. they told us the jury had a

question. that it had been answered and we were ushered back out of the courtroom and told we would not know what that question was. that it was sealed by the court. yesterday we were told the jury told the judge they could not come to a unanimous decision on a sentence for jodi arias. that means we're that much more likely to end one a hung jury. if that happens they have to choose a new injure. one for the penalty phase and that means proceedings will go on that much longer. we were trying to glean what it was all about from the attorneys ahead expressions. we did see travis alexander's family leaving the courtroom and they looked like they were dressed for a decision them looked very disappointed to hear that all there was was a jury question and it had been answer asked they don't have an answer on what will happen with jodi arias just yet. >> thanks. let's bring in attorney jamie floyd and jury selection consultant, richard gabriel. you know, it would seem to me that life in prison, especially

when you're as young as jodi arias would be a much stiffer penalty than the death sentence. you made the point yesterday that the death penalty is supposed to be for extraordinary cases. i think of timothy mcveigh. do you think that this case in which a woman killed her husband, essentially meets that criteria? >> i knew if i kept coming back day after day you would eventually make me answer this question that i was trying to avoid. >> sorry. >> reason i've been trying to avoid it is because i think my answer will be fairly unpopular. i do not think this is a death penalty case. it is a horrific case. and that i think she was death eligible. i think the jury was right to find that this was a cruel case and that was the first stage of the penalty phase. but now the question is, should she be put to death? does she qualify? you mentioned timothy mcveigh where 168 people lost their

lives including a number of children in a daycare center there on the first floor of the murrah building. we can think of other cases of terrorists, of people who have committed treason. those are the kinds of people i think we reserve the death penalty for. if we want lesser crimes, serial killers. people who have horrifically murdered children, more than one child, in fact. not this one case of a woman who murder her lover. it is horrible. the way he died was horrible. if we're going to have this extraordinary penalty, we have to think very carefully about how we employ it and why we employ it. is it a deterrent or is it retributative. and in this case would she do it again? she would be in prison the rest of her life. i think that is punishment enough. >> you're an expert at looking at juries and rate this jury for

us. do you think they would be sympathetic to the sort of argument that jamie is making? do you think they'll be sympathetic to jodi and want to spare her life? >> when you spend time in jury selection in death penalty cases, it corresponds with what jamie says. a lot of jurors are for the death penalty in principle. when they have a person in front of them, the criteria gets raised. it becomes personal at this point. at that point they do tend to apply criteria which says, if it is a child or especially mass murder situation, then they say that's what meets my criteria. what is interesting is there have been approximately 8,300 death penalty convictions over 40 years. only 2% have been implemented against women. and it has shown that actually in what they call more domestic situations where a woman kills a husband or a boyfriend, that's when it is applied but it is rarely applied. so the death penalty for a jury

here is difficult. and very personal. and some jurors may be clinging to what we call residual doubt. if they say, boy, i think this is a first-degree murder but there is an as that he can of passion or second-degree in there. they may have made an unconscious decision even in the first phase to say i'm willing to go with first degree but i'm not sure i can go all the way to the death penalty. up most jurors are open to the death penalty. if the prosecution has done a good job in the questioning phase, it has probably gotten rid of any jurors categorically against the death penalty. that's something people forget. in these cases, if there is a hung jury, it will go to a second phase and pick another jury. eat way, most of those juror are questioned whether they are open to the death penalty. we are often picking out of only to 60% population that remains open to the death penalty. >> all the research shows that the death penalty qualified jury

is more prone to actually give both convict the defendant and also implement the death penalty. less receptive to mitigation phase. so yes, the deck is stacked in their favor already. the thing that come into play here is really that personal element. which happens to be the principle versus the personal. there is this person in front of them and they're not quite sure. that's where the real question comes in. the other huge question here is how many jurors are opposing it. if it is just one jurors, then sometime the pressure of that 11 other jurors can necessarily influence that and they can basically fold to pressure and convicted. if there is more than two, it is much harder and let's face it, even the prosecutors may be hard pressed if there is even more than that to even go back and retry the death penalty. >> it does have to be unanimous. it underscores the fact that it

has to be unanimous for death. >> you've jumped in. let me ask you this question. if a second jury is necessary, with a case as infamous as this, as widely reported as this, where are these people going to come from? >> that's something the prosecution has to think about. do they spend the time, the resources, the money, all of the emotional exhaustion that both sides, but in particular the alexanders would have to go through with a second trial and it is not the whole trial. let's be clear. the second jury only comes in for the penalty phase and only at the point after cruelty has been established. so they would only be deciding whether she lives or dies. still, that is an extraordinary effort and expense on the part of the state. how do you find those unbiased people? are they out there? i don't think so. >> thanks for being here. up next, the phrase

inquiring minds dread the most. i plead the fifth. remember this guy in. >> i am you said a nondisclosure agreement and should not discuss matters related to the television matter. on advice of counsel, i assert my rights to remain quiet. i will decline to answer your question. how many simple ingredients does your dog food have? 30? 20? new purina one beyond has 9. the simplified purina one beyond.

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the day building a play set begins with a surprise twinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪ i plead the fifth! i plead the fifth! anything you say fifth! go ahead ask me a question fifth! the secret document that i think you need to say, fif! >> that was dave chappell's take on the fifth. yesterday on capitol hill it wasn't a laughing matter. key testimony from tirs official who ran the division that had

everybody because she wouldn't. >> i will not answer any questions or fwef the subject matter of the committee's meeting. >> she frustrated lawmakers, disrupted the investigation all by pleading the fifth. was it legal? why is the fifth amendment powerful enough to defy a subpoena? fifth amendment professor, james duane. thank you for being here. >> thank you. a pleasure to be with you. >> as you know from teaching law school and as i know from going to law school, it is always dave chappell and evidence. and that because the fifth amendment is popular in the popular imagination. in pop politics we spend more time on the first and second amendment but this is a pretty strong protection. explicitly in a criminal trial but also government inquiries. why is that? >> the fifth amendment is not limited to criminal trials. it protects you whenever you are being interrogated or questioned by any agent or representative

of the government. even if it is just you and the police department at the police station. it gives you the absolute right to refuse to answer any questions that could be possibly used against you. it gives you the absolute right -- >> go ahead. >> it gives you the absolute right, the u.s. supreme court has said, to refuse to cooperate with the government in putting together a case against you. it reflects a profound and a fundamental constitutional policy determination that in the prosecution of criminal cases, the burden needs to be placed entirely and always on the government. >> sure. and that makes sense. i can't imagine president obama is pleased with lois lerner right now. i'm sure he would like to get to the bottom of it. in giving that opening statement that she did before essentially taking the fifth, and insisting i have done nothing criminally wrong, i've done nothing wrong.

if it turns out that somehow she perjured herself, can that later be used against her in a prosecution or not? >> well, if that statement was false, yes. she could be prosecuted for perjury as any witness could for knowingly giving false testimony under oath no matter what it might have consisted of. it can prove that she lied when she said that she had done nothing wrong. she could potentially be prosecuted for perjury. >> it is a little vague. >> that is the least of her problems. because obviously, they could not put together, when a witness like her testifies to nothing more than an innocuous conclusion of nns, there is no way you can prove that she is guilty of perjury unless you can first prove that she had committed some other crime. in that case the perjury charge is just gravy, so to speak. >> so professor, if you were lois lerner's counsel, what

could you have advised her to do yesterday in. >> well, i would have given her the same advice that any competent criminal defense attorney would have given her. i would have advised her to assert the fifth amd just about every chance she got. that is advice if any competent attorney will give virtually any witness in any setting when they're dealing with the government. she has performed an important public service by giving all of us a bold example of the confident way far more americans ought to be asserting the fifth when they're thrown questions by the internal revenue service. that's the advice i would have given. >> to that point in a court of law, pleading fifth should not be held against a person. it should not be a presumption that people have something to hide. but a lot of people are looking at her decision to plead the fifth in front of congress as some sort of admission that there is something there. >> it is natural and it is a

common reaction. but no, it is neither fair nor justified. you don't have to take my word for it. the united states supreme court has said repeatedly one of the most noble functions of the fifth amendment is the way it protects not only the guilty but the innocent. the united states supreme court has said that innocent people have ambiguous circumstances that point toward guilt even though they play done nothing wrong. it common that people will think she has something to hide if she is asserting the truth. it is not necessarily true. justice robert jackson famously said a number of decades ago, any defense attorney worth his salt will advise his client not to talk to the police under any circumstances. part of the problem is what is known as overcriminalization. there are literally over 10,000 criminal statutes on the book. it has become ridiculously easy for government agents like miss

lerner how prosecute people who did not realize they were doing anything intrinsically wrong. >> on that privilege, i wanted to ask you. people forget. this is something the founders put this as a fundamental right. one that congress could not really take away. we're in the fight with congress. how they relate to a government servant of the whole point is to have a check against government power. is there anything ironic about at least some republicans, some conservatives ham, they witness who for other reasons may have a lot of objections? but on this particular decision, this is what we want, right in we want people to stand up to the government, however threatening. or however intimidating a police officer might be and exercise their rights? >> yes. when you're listing the government agents who can come across as sbim dating, don't forget the irs.

they're not known for their hospitality or congeniality in putting up with people who try to assert the fifth amendment the way she did yesterday. >> thank you for telling us more about a sometime forgotten amendment. up next, three years after the deadliest mining disaster in generations, the explosive story about greed, corruption, and two sma . she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever. as in never ever. now about that parking ticket. [ grunting ] [ male announcer ] the citi simplicity card is the only card that never has late fees, a penalty rate, or an annual fee, ever. go to citi.com/simplicity to apply.

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back now with a david and goliath story for our time. the powerful energy executive, actually the most powerful coal baron in america, massey energy ceo don blankenship, and two odd couple small town layers, dave faucett and dave stanley, a 14 year court bad l, the corruption that would eventually cost innocent lives. the cost against blankenship and massey energy gained national attention with the upper big branch mine explosion in 2010. 29 miners were killed making it the deadly accident in generations. and four former massey executives were convicted in a wide ranging federal investigation. having willfully ignored safety standards in pursuit of the almighty dollar. blankenship has so far escaped prosecution, but our next guest believes it's only a matter of time until that changes, too.

journalist lawrence lemer documents this epic, the coal industry's most corrupt ceo to justice in the new book "the price of justice: a true story of greed and corruption." lawrence, welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> i have to tell you, i'm not all the way through the book, but it is absolutely riveting. it's got everything. it's hard to believe in some ways it's a true story. you've got the corruption and grief that's in the title. you have an incredible villain, really, in don blankenship. you have questions of unions and the culture of coal country. i'm curious, what was it that drew you to this story in particular? >> 40 years ago, i went down to west virginia, and i worked in a coal mine. i worked for three months. i broke my finger and i wrote an article about it for "harper's magazine." i saw this article in "time" magazine about it, in "the new york times." and i went down and i went to pittsburgh and met these two lawyers and thought, what an incredible story. it's being totally ignored.

john grisham wrote a novel about it called "the appeal." he read this book in a day and said it's superb, and he said he wished he had written the book, itself. >> you write about the whole problem of judicial bias when there's money flooding into these judicial elections. a very new thing in american democracy. what to ydo you do with a supre court ruling that says if a judge gets a lot of money, it's biased, they have to recuse themselves. on the other hand, if there's a lot of money flowing around, you can knock judges off cases. it seems like a troubling standard and it's new. where's it going to go from here? >> blankenship spent $3.5 million electing one justice who then voted his way, a $50 million judgment in caperton that my two lawyer heroes got in a court in west virginia. he voted his way. went to the united states supreme court. where ted olson argued and the court said you can't do this anymore. although in citizens united a few months later, they said in

the rest of the political system you can. >> you say don blankenship will probably be indicted at some point. what's been the holdup? >> well, i've got some news for you. i learned something just before we went on the air. >> oh? >> blankenship is the -- the u.s. attorney is after him diligently and seriously, serious investigations. not at all political. it's the way investigations should be done. systemically working his way from a lower level employee, indicting them, sending them away to prison. working up until blankenship -- it's only blankenship's standing above there. now, blankenship has said, blankenship has accuse ed cecil roberts, president of united mineworkers, of possibly being a murderer. by implication, he is accusing mike trumka, president of afl-cio, of being possibly a murderer. >> richard, yeah. >> he says in 1985, there was a big strike. the biggest strike in the history of the united mineworkers. in southern west virginia.

a contract murder was hired to kill a strike worker. he said these union officials may have been behind this, may have been the murderers. he says the reason cecil robs is pushing for his indictment is he wants the feds to stay away from his multiple crimes. that is not the case. in all probability, blankenship will be indicted for some fairly extraordinary charges. it will blow open west virginia and the national media will look at this story the way they should have been looking at it for a long time. >> hey, lawrence, let's look at the bigger picture here. what are the takeaways you come away with after writing this book about judicial elections and the role money plays? >> well, it's -- i mean, i really think we have to look seriously at appointing justices. in switzerland, there are very few countries in the world that elect justices. a lot of people say that's jacksonian democracy, it's a

good thing. what happens, people throw their money in there and guess they're going to vote their way. west virginia is an extreme of that. find the same kind of stories in texas or pennsylvania. a lot of places. i mean, basically blankenship owned the court. he owned two or three of these justices and they went his way. and it was just a cost of doing business to get them elected. >> lawrence, one of the great things about the book is how steeped in the culture of coal country you really are. what is the relationship, if you could quickly, between west virgin virginians in coal country and massey energy and blankenship? >> massey energy is the biggest coal company ever. it's a dominant force. it was the biggest employer. so people and massey destroyed the union. so the only identification people have is with massey. those are the people who gained the jobs. that's why they were so angry. we were down -- i was down in coal country in southern west virginia last weekend. we were doing an event. marilyn evans, who's doing an

incredible documentary about the region, when she left sunday morning, there was a black suv that followed her for over an hour and a half. that's the reality down there. >> all right, lawrence leamer, it's a great read and fascinating story. thanks for your time today. >> thanks for having me. >> and we're back with more after this. great job! okay! here you go. good catch! alright, now for the best part. ooh, let's get those in the bowl. these are way too good to waste, right? [ male announcer ] share what you love with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes. they're gr-r-reat! a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation.

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all right. that does it for "the cycle." martin bashir, it is all yours. >> tauhank you so much, krystal ball. good afternoon. it's tuesday may the 30rd. the commander in chief has laid out his vision f